Let’s Run This Up the California Flagpole

My home state has been kicking the budget can down the road for years and is finally running out of road. California is facing its biggest budget deficit ever — a staggering $21 billion, or 49.3 percent of the state’s general revenue fund.

As a political cartoonist I look for bad guys to skewer in my cartoons. In California there are bad guys everywhere to be blamed for our fiscal mess: our good-for-nothing Governor Schwarzenegger; our greedy, irresponsible legislature; the media that ignores state issues; and the electorate who votes for more debt to fund wasteful projects like multi-billion dollar trains people don’t want to use. Voters have approved more bond debt than the state can sell. In short, everyone is a bad guy.

Different groups point to their own favorite villains. Liberals like to blame Proposition 13 for limiting the legislature’s ability to raise taxes, even though our taxes are crazy high. Conservatives like to blame labor unions for milking the state dry, and liberals for chasing away business with taxes and regulations. The media likes to blame voters who vote for constitutional amendments that micromanage our dysfunctional legislature. Populists want to tax the rich more, even though the state has gotten into trouble by relying too much on income taxes and crashed when the incomes of the rich fell with the current recession.

But cash-flow isn’t California’s only problem — we also have a water crisis. In Los Angeles I’m limited to watering my lawn after 5:00pm on Monday and Thursday, and I struggle with a low-flow toilet, that has to be flushed three times to work, while rice farmers flood their farms with cheap subsidized water and the legislature has approved a whopping $11 billion bond measure, laced with porky giveaways, to fix the “water problem.” California would have plenty of water and money to go around if we had leaders who could step up and make some serious choices.

My favorite California money pits are the state commissions; out-of-work legislators, who have been term-limited out of office, are appointed to these six figure, do-nothing jobs while they relax and wait for their next electoral opportunities.

We have colorful problems and goofy characters who should make great cartoon characters for me, but they all share the blame so equally, and are so uninteresting as individuals, that my life as a California editorial cartoonist is more frustrating than it should be.

Of course, this all leads me to suggest that we change our state flag.

The bear on our flag might be the only state government character who stands blame-free, and who looks good in a cartoon. We should keep the bear — but lets change him every so often to let the government know how we feel about them. Here are a few of my suggestions for a new state flag.

California’s governor and legislature could run a few of these flags up the flagpole, and see who salutes them.

By Daryl Cagle

Daryl Cagle is the founder and owner of Cagle Cartoons, Inc. He is one of the most widely published editorial cartoonists and is also the editor of The Cagle Post. For the past 35 years, Daryl has been one of America’s most prolific cartoonists.

36 replies on “Let’s Run This Up the California Flagpole”

Cagle complains of problems with a low-flow toilet. C'mon. Kohler has low-flow models that will flush a dozen golf balls. Have no idea what he disposes of down his Crapper. Such phony complaints are so "flushless"………………..The solution: Kaleeforneea secedes from the Union, becomes a 3rd world country unto itself, and the rest of the USA rids itself of an albatross. And Dale can complain til hell freezes over while he munches on broccoli, denounces God, and quotes from Karl Marx….Annoy the hell out of Dale: work hard, be successful, be happy…….Something he has never accomplished…….

Daryl, get your facts straight. You don't have water for the same reason that the San Joaquin Valley is being turned into a desert; they have shut down the pumps in the Delta because of the Delta Smelt. The big bad growers that you blame cannot plant their crops because of lack of water, and while your lawn is dying their lives are dying. There is over 30% unemployment in some San Joaquin Valley towns.

Blame the wacko environmentalists for your lack of water.

Move!! There are better places to live. Atlhough Texas has its share of problems, stupid pols, neanderthal politicians and right wing nut cases, regardless it is NOT insolvent, attracts jobs and companies from places like CA, and has a low cost of living.

The red star on the ink bottle is a nice touch.

(I'm completely kidding about this. I haven't heard anyone yell "Socialist!" about our state government… yet.)

OMG blames illegal immigration for California problems, a cheap scapegoat. In fact, without immigrant labor, California would be up shitcreek. I honor the men and women who work so hard in our state to find a way to survive for their families. After all, the Anglos stole California from their ancestors. Scapegoating is a sure sign of…..projection and denial. As usual, OMG is 180 degrees wrong, tho he will sling his usual trash talk instead of arguing the merits of the case.

"The predictions for the next 100 years seems to suggest……………………………………….

The predictions? Whose predictions? What kind of absurd statement is this? OMG, OMG……where do you get your information? Anyone can make a prediction especially 100 years off; it is cheap and no one will be alive to call you out. In short, it is ridiciulous to premise an analysis on a vague and worthless prediciton.

This is zenophobia, tinged with racism, at its most naked. Let's blame the poor little guys who do all the dirty work of our society for our problems. Let's scapegoat the most vulnerable residents. Let's demean their hard work and cultural contributions. Let's blame the Mexicans for our problems. Let's spread fear of the war with Mexico ahead. Let's stick our heads up our asses and see what truths may be hiding there. OMG has led the way…………thank God he does not live in California, still the most diverse and beautiful and wealthy state in the nation. I would much rather have the Mexicans as neighbors than these Texas rednecks,with their pride in their stupidity.

OMG, you called me out for never serving the community….I replied with my 20 years of teaching the disabled. So, if you have an ounce of integrity, tell me what great contributions you have made to your community–if you gave blood, please provide a copy of your receipt. That is what you asked me for. And I await your apology for so lying about my lack of community service and the rude personal insults you have thrown at me invented out of your sick imagination. I do not expect answers but rather more unsubstantiated and vilifying (and off base) remarks. I would wish you peace but I don't think you could handle it. Well, peace.

I love the wise people who comment on here and can't find enough facts to back their argument so they resort to personal attacks on the writers and other posters. I might not always agree with Cagle or many of the other writers or posters on this site, but they are definitely entitled to their opinions. If they aren't factual blast them by all means but don't be a two year old and personally attack them. Its great how the media and political campaigns even follow this kindergarten debate mentality. When all else fails resort to name calling. What a pathetic way to debate anything, unless of course you don't actually have any support for your argument…

Kohler Kid……..since God is a product of the human imagination, it makes no sense to denounce it. I denounce not God but people who reject reason and facts to embrace fairy tales and then use them to justify war, murder, oppression, etc. Jews do it, Arabs do it, Christians do it. I myself am a Buddhist and agree with Karl Marx that "religion is the heart of a heartless system (capitalism).}"

Annoy the hell out of Dale?????????????Is that your intellectual and moral tactic? And I am not complaining, you are. I am promoting pacifism, veganism, dialogue, creativity, free thinking, tolerance, diversity.

And Kohlerkid, how do you know what I have accomplished, whether I am happy.? In fact, my lost friend, I have accomplished much in my life and have and continue to have great happiness. But your goal is to annoy… disrupt… insult. That is you. I prefer the peace that comes with understanding and the moral courage to reject herd thinking. All the crap you sling at me does not touch me……it projects an image of your own soul, the sadistic joy of the bully. Your hateful insults describe not me but yourself.

Christ said Love thy neighbor, love thy enemy. I love you, Koolaid Kid, and wish for your awakening.

As MLK, Thoreau, Tolstoy, Ghandi, Buddha, and Jesus said: love is the answer. This so pissed off the haters that they had to kill MLK, Ghandi, and Jesus. It's an old story. Some people hate love, and project hatred onto those who preach love. It's an old confusion. So shoot me!

I grew-up in suburban Los Angeles and left in my mid-20s. I have returned to LA for a relatively short time to witness the lunacy in California all over again. Daryl, you're right, everyone IS to blame for the sorry state wherein California finds itself. I am happy that relatively soon I'll be able to return to my adopted home, Chicago.

Chicago and Illinois have their problems as well. Chicago, Cook County and Illinois have governments that are fundamentally corrupt. However, the citizens and the politicians recognize this as fact. Some of our politicians are some of the most honest in government. Or senior Senator, Dick Durbin, our current governor, Pat Quinn and our President, the once junior Senator, Barack Obama, are some of the most honorable people in government. There are several others of note who are honest, but their are many, many others who go with the flow and who are corrupt as the day is long. I say this in order to provide some perspective to my comments regarding California.

Because I am a native Californian who left, I think I have a somewhat different perspective on the current situation that California. I do not see the situation in black and white, or stereotypical terms. I can say that the situation in California has been in growing for decades. I would suggest since WWII. California was sold as a paradise, as a refuge from winter, as a place where the sun shined, where you could start again and that everything you would need could be yours. My parents bought into it and moved to California. I know others bought into dream and continue to buy into it. The movie industry helped support it dream, but they were only part of creating it.

What I find particularly interesting is that the "everything is wonderful, no need to worry" perspective and approach to things has lasted so long. As I mentioned, California has been headed to this multifaceted day of reckoning for decades. Each time a crisis seemed to appear, the "head in the sand" or do as little as possible approach has seemed to work. Until now.

I know that most people who live in California actually believe that the financial crisis and the drought will somehow fix themselves. Somehow some way, money will be found and the financial crisis will disappear. It will rain and rain, and snow and snow, and the drought will disappear. Like magic. Why do people believe this? Because the crises always seemed to evaporate in the past and people didn't have to make major changes their lives. And this time they believe that nothing is different.

But this time, I think California is in for the fight of it's life. And no one is prepared.

I visited the water museum across from Pyramid Lake on I-5 a few weeks ago and I noticed that there was nothing about the drought. I asked one of the museum guides why nothing about the drought was in all places, the water museum. I was told that "the state water officials were ignoring the problem and hoping that it would just disappear." I'm not kidding. This is what I was told and knowing California and Californians the way that I do, I believe it.

So, my point about being a Chicagoan I made earlier? The point I wanted to make is that we Chicagoans know the score, we're aware of the situation. We may not always do enough to correct it, but we're well grounded when it comes to reality. Californians … I think they're largely disconnected and have failed to realize the extent and gravity of their current situation. I understand it, because I was once one of them.

I've lived all over the United States (military brat) but spent most of my adult life in California. It has beautiful beaches, scenic mountains and wonderful weather. It has been a great place to live. Most of it is almost a desert, thus our water problems. Most people here do not conserve like they should. Few people here really think before they vote. All it takes is money to get elected for anything.

I've lived in both northern and southern California and illegal immigrants are a SEVERE problem, especially in the south. The public school system is in crisis due to the flood of non-English speaking students whose parents do not pay property taxes. They do not care if their children learn English because slowly the state language is becoming Spanish. The education budget is a % of the state budget and if income goes down so does the budget for schools. Teachers are let go every March because school districts don't know if they can be rehired until September when they find out how much money they will get. The first thing they do is put more children in a classroom, thus teachers lose their jobs or are transferred to other schools and have to teach a different grade.Teachers are kept based on seniority only, not their ability to teach.

The hospital emergency rooms are filled with non-paying patients speaking only Spanish. Health insurance premiums are sky high here due to the high cost of health care. Our jails and prisons are filled with an alarming number of non-citizen Spanish speaking criminals, many of whom have already been deported more than once. California spends almost $50,000 per inmate in a year. This is simply unfair as well as crazy.

Our politicians (almost all Democrats) believe California has the moral duty to take care of everyone (legal or not) residing here and it is bankrupting the state. The state employees' unions have negotiated unbelievable benefits packages and their pensions are guaranteed by the state and they rarely can be fired. An outrageous number of them do not speak English well enough to be understood, especially on the phone or even behind the counter (like at the DMV). My local firefighters and police officers now have to speak Spanish to hold or get a job. Californians pay combined state income, property and local taxes that are among the highest in the nation, yet still have very little to show for it. Our legislators keep coming up with budgets that cannot be balanced and then demand higher and higher taxes. The very people who have been paying the most are leaving California in droves, making the remaining taxpayers pay even more. California is a sinking ship and may very well be the first state government to go under.

California needs to dump almost all their elected officials and start all over again.
Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi are an embarassment to their state and their gender. If the Democrats get an amendment passed that allows a simple majority vote to pass the budget or anything else, California will go under even more quickly.
We have become a sanctuary state for illegal aliens and it is choking us.

Go ahead and laugh if you live in another state but believe me, your state may be next. Without firing a weapon, they will take over the United States with all of their anchor babies unless American citizens wake up and start demanding that the Federal government start guarding our borders and stop the flood. We need to stop allowing dual citizenship as well.

Anyone who says illegals immigrants are not the problem has not done their homework. It is simple to find out how much illegals are given each yr in welfare and SS. Easy to find health care places and hsptls going out of business because of the cost of free care to illegals. Schools overcrowded, ruthless drug gangs. The courts are flooded and all they do is let the criminals out on bail and they are not see again. Just change their name and keep going. They have no health ins or car ins. They get more more money on welfare than Americans who have just lost their jobs. The jobs you say they do used to be done by Americans till people became so greedy that they hire them for maids, nannies, busboys, kitchen work, etc. Jobs that black and white Americans used to do. Americans fought and sometimes died for decent pay and safer working conditions. Now the illegals come in and do the work for slaves wages, putting Americans out of work, while the people who hire them get rich off cheap labor. The big growers work them in the fields with no mercy. No restrooms, no water, and pay them by how much they pick forcing them to work hard long days. And while this grower is getting rich we pay for the health care and school their children. Every time one of them commits a crime we pay for his lawyers. With amnesty we will become a third world country. Millions more will pour across our country.
Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard and Pfiser are 3 of the companies that are firing or laying off American workers and keeping foreign Visa workers and want to up the ante on how many Visas are given out each yr. So don't tell me these people are only doing jobs Americans won't do. Americans won't do these jobs for slaves wages is the difference. But Mexico who could have well afforded to create decent paying jobs for their people preferred them coming to America and sending back millions a yr to their families in Mexico. These people should have fought for their rights to decent jobs in Mexico like Americans did instead of coming here and stealing jobs from Americans.

Myke: "Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard and Pfiser are 3 of the companies that are firing or laying off American workers and keeping foreign Visa workers and want to up the ante on how many Visas are given out each yr."
So… who are you fighting? illegal immigrants or American corporations that like having cheap foreign labour and don't really want to change the status quo?

It would seem that California is proof of the pudding that being educated and blue is no protection against irresponsibility and stupdity. It would seem that Mississippi is proof of the pudding that being ignorant and red is not protection against irresponsibility and stupidity. It would seem that New Jersey, New York, Texas… get the idea. We have met the enemy and he/she is us! Perhaps if there were few of us, there would be less irresponsibility and stupidity? Maybe Osama bin Laden is our only real friend? Whew! It seems to be getting warm around here.

There is only one way to go for sane and sensible California residents and that way is out, as in leaving the state like I did. The state is unfixable and unchangeable so long as nut case liberal progressives run the legislature. For some reason, despite the overwhelming evidence that the ship is sinking the voters just rearrange the deck chairs with voter initiatives while keeping the same crew that ran them into the iceberg. This is not going to change because this country is locked into a two party system where neither of the two is interested in what is good for the nation and what their constituents are trying to tell them.

it is too bad that people like omg, soapboxlady, and myke learmed to hate as they learned to read and write. the one thing they never learned is to think rationally. people like them can take their places in the queue along with pol pot, who hated all that were educated, hitler, who hated jews, gypsies, and the mentally ill, the turks, who hated the armenians, the northern irish,who hated each other, the americans, who hated the indians; well the list could go on and on, but you get the idea. it was always the stupidity of blaming the poor,the downtrodden, the different for all our troubles. all this was done without ever looking at ourselves. maybe omg, soapboxlady, and myke ought to start by looking into their mirror to find those who are causing all the trouble. it ought to be an enlightening experience for them, something they never tried before and to see where the trouble lies..


You're too late. I'm not paying 150 Grand a year in income taxes and 15 Grand a year in property taxes any longer. It was a conscious deliberate choice. I'm not marching my ass into a bank anymore to secure hundreds of thousands in debt to shoot for the American dream…and provide incomes for a host of others, put up with govt bureaucracies, or get sued in the finale. Your shallow mind renders your philosophy neutered as you fail to critique the article, but rather made a deliberate choice to wave your liberal wand in cliches, innuendo, and a disturbing distance from reality.

1. May I suggest everyone stop reading this column, go read "Collapse" by Jarred Diamond and when you come back, we can continue?
Wow! You read it this fast! Ok, so now you know that history is filled with societies that lasted for a long time, were brought to the brink and… either adapted or failed. Those that failed are examples of complete collapse (Easter Island, the Greenland Norse, the Maya, etc..) and those that did not are examples of changes in attitude that allowed survival and new growth (Island, Tokunawa´s Japan, New Zeland´s aggricultural societies, etc..).
So, let bring this back to CA. The WHOLE state is in the red and it´s the fault of everybody, except, it´s more the fault of those who get the lowest wages, or those who get the biggest wages, or those who spend water, or those who do not.
But before you grab your gun and start shooting at your favorite object of hate, you may pause to think that the other one did not get there by chance… you have ilegal immigration because you want your farmgoods cheap AND locally grown, plus, you want hired help that is also cheap.
So,it will go as it always does, just like Argentina. The system will fail, the poorest will pay and the banks will reap the benefit. Those that can, will abandon ship and those that cant or wont, will go down with it or stay dry enough to bear the storm. What will remain? It´s a guess, but it could go two ways: good one, you get a state government that implements a "debt-lowering" policy and tries to bring everyone into the fold (reducing taxes for industries that hire, raising taxes for industries that do not or that cost you environmentally, raising taxes for large expansion of under-used terrain, etc..) or, you can go the way of Argentina, where it´s back to the old wishful thinking, where the lowest paid are the first victims, followed by the lower middle class and going onwards, at the same time, increasing the levels of personal insecurity by having people so despondent that they do not care what they will do to you in order to eat. In the mean time, the political machine keeps getting bloated.
So, you are not going to find an answer by the placing blame on others.
You/We/all are in the same boat, if California buckles, it is likely to bring down other states with it, and, like the Titanic, how many chambers can go below the water before the whole thin sinks? And if it all sinks, where is the rest of the world going?


Quote: "OMG blames illegal immigration for California problems, a cheap scapegoat."

Wrong…it isn't cheap. Look up and get reality….it's sinking the state.

For a man consumed by being "called out"…..why broadcast on this thread? If you read the thread that it occurred in, you'll see I did apologize. Maybe I was right after all, you are so wrapped up in hatred that when someone disagrees with you, you're being "called out". The supreme insult to the highly educated 14 doctorate, community activist Dale? The same Dale who never understood the point I made…look in the mirror before criticizing? So I guess you did and you're perfect right?

Predictions for "The Next 100 years"? Yes, and it was sourced, yet you failed to see it, instead proceeded to discredit it though you haven't read it. I would highly suggest you read it before criticizing it, a man of your obvious stature should have been able to understand this without a ripple in the water.

It always makes me laugh when conservatives like to brand California as a liberal state. Those who do have no sense of historical perspective.

California is traditionally conservative and oligarchic. Remember Ronald Reagan was a two-term governor of California. California was the birth place of the John Birch Society and the headquarters of the American Nazi party. The LA Times for decades was an extremely conservative newspaper. Conservative and powerful men controlled the California political system for decades. For decades African-Americans were treated as badly or worse in LA and suburban LA as they were in the Deep South. California has numerous military bases and has from the beginning of WWII received lavish revenue from the Federal Government to support and expand those bases. Furthermore, since WWII, California has the most defense jobs. Again, another huge source of revenue for the state. And as a rule, defense contractors and their employees are conservative.

California also has some liberal and free-spirited elements as well. And an innovative subculture that has understands and accepts risk as a necessity for moving forward. San Francisco in recent decades became the progressive center of California. But Southern California, with the largest population, has been conservative.

California is full of contradictions. It has the initiative process whereby the people can amend the constitution. The concept is progressive and populist. Yet some of the most conservative laws have passed through this process. The legislature has to have a 2/3rds vote to pass a budget or a new tax. No other state does this. And it makes California nearly ungovernable.

Compounding the problem, Californians throw out a competent, professional and moderate governor and elect a rank amateur. Californians complain about illegal immigrants, but by their behavior place a "sign" on the border saying "we love cheap Latino labor."

Again, conservatives and liberals alike living in California … you have no one to blame but yourselves. You dug yourselves into this hole. However, as some one rightfully pointed out, as California goes, so goes the nation. We are in this together. And Californians will have to accept the folly of their ways and finally change. If not, we're all doomed.

I have lived in California for the last 17 years, and also for a brief time in the mid 80s (military). I have also lived in seven other states from east to west and north to south, and I have never seen a more poorly run state government, nor a more hopelessly inept group of legislators running it.

These people are running a $21 BILLION debt, and are still trying to figure out how to continue paying for programs for people who don't pay taxes.

They allow Los Angeles to continue stealing water from the rest of the state, drying up every river in the San Joaquin Valley, and have the gall to complain that because of a statewide drought there isn't enough water to steal. Meanwhile, nobody had even considered the posibility of building desalination plants so the could get substantial amounts of water from the ocean they live right next to.

Meanwhile, for the cost of the over priced house I bought, on a lot the size of a postage stamp, I could probably buy an entire ranch in Montana.

Why do I stay? I'm trapped. I actually have a job, with benefits, and I'm unwilling to sacrifice my retirement to chuck it all and leave. I'm close to retirement though, and when I do, I'm going to move to a state where I can enjoy it. Preferably one with a lot fewer fruits and nuts.

What a microcosmic view into the future of the USA. California had generally led the way in national trends, so this harbinger of our country's decline is clear: YOU CAN'T TAX AND SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT. This applies to individuals, companies, counties, states and nations. Winston Churchill said it well, "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." Congress take note: the American people have had it with our tax and spend EMPLOYEES. Yes, all of Congress and Nobama himself work for US. We can and will FIRE THEM in 2012. 'VOTE 'EM ALL OUT!'…or as a fellow from mid-America said, 'DON'T RE-ELECT NOBODY.' I think it would be a capital idea to simply identify ALL THE INCUMBENTS and VOTE FOR THEIR OPPONENTS. That's what we need, a complete infusion of new thinking in Washington. Again, 'VOTE 'EM ALL OUT.'

My apolgies. I meant to say $21 BILLION deficit, not $21 BILLION debt. Our over inflated debt is WAY more than $21 billion.

Comment from Just another Vet
Time November 30, 2009 at 12:45 pm

"My apolgies. I meant to say $21 BILLION deficit, not $21 BILLION debt. Our over inflated debt is WAY more than $21 billion."

I am not to familiar with California's debt and that is a real eye opener….that is an outrageously staggering amount…..

My thought is "Lord, grant me the serenity ……"

Outrageous taxation was the single most important criteria I had for dissolving a business, seeking a lower profile, and owning virtually nothing…Why? Because government stays up nites figuring ways to take it all away. I am not going to play their game any longer, and grew very weary of the American dream being raped by politicians (that means no more $120K roundtrip fuel for Queen Pelosi's 757 to be paid by me, which means I slaved all year to pay taxes so she could fly nonstop one time to SF to DC, even though she does it often. I don't think she is worth it.). Or given away to illegal immigrants…and folks like us paying for it. No longer do the ends justify the means. The ends are nothing but what government allows you to have. It took me years to figure that one out. It will get worse too, with Obama ratcheting up all the hatred for those who provide jobs…aka > $250K annually club.

Escritor de Tejas, thank you. I always enjoy your reads.

are you planning to move out of the country or are you just not going to pay your taxes any more. the first would be a welcome change. the second will give you a chance to live on the gavernment dole, but without the freedom that you think you deserve. either way , be our guest. hate always seems to come back on the hater to lift them on their own petard.

I live in Nevada and watch the "Californication" of my state happen progressively. Anyone who naively (or idealogically) thinks that illegal immigration is not the (primary) problem is deliberately wearing blinders. As hard as the words are to read, soapboxlady and Myke are irrefutably correct. And I'm going to add what they didn't. They didn't mention that the population of illegals in our prisons is approaching 30%. How's that Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer?

We are burdend with millions of third-world people whose own country won't look out for them, and have no problem with their citizens coming here and nursing from the American public teat. Since California was the first state to open its arms to the illegals 30+ years ago, it's only fitting that it begins to drown in its own largesse.

If we don't demand that our "legislators" (such as they are) do something, as goes California, so goes the rest of us. And a continuing influx of uneducated, uncultured, non-English speaking (and don't care if they ever learn) people can't possibly be good for us. Suddenly, the poor folks who are picking beans in the fields are exposed for what they are … a minority in the millions who are NOT picking beans, but who are disemboweling states' budgets everywhere.

And before the "you're a hater" folks get their panties in a wad … this is not hate. It's reality, which can be overwhelmingly inconvenient.


I thought my wording was clear. No, I'll not live off of my fellow citizens, I am vastly more resourceful and self respecting than that. You sir, exhibit the perimeters of your small mind and the boundaries of your behavior if you were in a similar situation by even suggesting that it is a satisfactory alternative….a low baseline person..a rider on the wagon others pull…only one of the two low tiered coping mechanisms you offered. The other was fright and flight…moving. An offshoot of your poor coping ability is your quick arrival to judge others because you have no concrete solutions to offer….because you have no experience from which to formulate them. My point still stands and you obviously have no self analytical ability….so I'll ask you outright. Did you ever comment on the subject mater within the thread or was your self conceited purified hatred only dumped on me, Soapboxlady, and Myke from your anointed position in the heirarchy of the Oracle? Go back and read LearntoDebate's comment please, the author was talking to….you. I've offered ideas and rationale for my debate related to the subject matter, you are welcome to agree or disagree as vehemently as you please ….but you sir, have done nothing but gab your mouth about other posters….so you deal with it since you choose to live with it, and learn to stop hating…you are the hater sir, not I.

Really, too many points to address.
If illegal immigrants were not either wanted or needed (essentially the same thing) here, they would not be here. Good night Irene, they ARE picking beans, or cutting asparagus, hoeing sugar beets, etc., etc. I have done some of the same work that they do (even cleaned migrant laborer's dormitories, while the 'family farmer' was off flying hot air balloons or adding another classic Jaguar or imported hand made shotgun, 200 at that time, to their collection, and their kids sitting in the shade by the pool smoking dope and/or boozing, waiting for me or somebody to clean it, or flying back from college in the private plane daddy bought them to make their commute home for the holidays a little easier- and all this with a generally RIGHT wing political orientation- and, oh yeah, the million dollar subsidies for not growing anything) and it is brutal and not on the average well compensated. You should try it. Spend 12 hours or more bent over in 110 degree F sunshine day after day. Then chucked out when when the job was finished.
If corporations are hiring 'VISA' labor instead of locals, they are patently not 'ILLEGAL'.
My guess is that most of you anti-immigrant types (strangely though, I have some sympathy for this position) haven't spent much time abroad, likely haven't left the old home town even (though some have likely lived in the just like back home security of military bases abroad).
I wonder what you think of your 'Fellow Americans', or Canadians, British, etc. who are also economic refugees of a sort, many typically teaching English abroad under tenuously or simply illegal conditions, and often not learning much of the local language or 'going native'? But they are contributing to the general welfare.
As to 'Californication', many in the Pacific Northwest (but not the Real Estate types of course) would love to close the borders, even repatriate.
'Tax & Spend'?…How about… 'Don't Tax (the ultra-rich or corporations) and Spend'…
This has become a rant, so farewell for now.

I have a suggestion/solution for California's problems. We all know that liberals love to spend other people's money for their causes and also love bigger government. So, since the movie industry is also liberal thinking AND filthy rich, why doesn't the CA state govt. take over the movie industry. This would be a huge revenue for the state. They could even hire the illegal immigrants as actors and actresses for far less than what is paid to the current ones, which in turn, would give them state benefits to cover their healthcare. I think this is a win win situation, since the current actors/actresses/producers/directors have enough money.

My original post in regard to this cartoon and article with subsequent invitation by Daryl for readers to post included a link to a book by George Friedman, who also authored "Americas Secret War". It appears the link does not work now, so I posted the title of the book below and it can be bought from various sources. With the exception of nuclear war, the book assembles geopolitical trends with demographic trends to arrive at some really numbing conclusions. One of the reviews stated it better than I, "The U.S. will be challenged by some surprising new powers. Hint: you might want to start following news from Warsaw, Mexico City, and Istanbul a little more closely."

'The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century'

I read the book mostly because I was urged to and it reinforced my belief that illegal immigration is the source of many of America's problems. As Irene said " Suddenly, the poor folks who are picking beans in the fields are exposed for what they are … a minority in the millions who are NOT picking beans, but who are disemboweling states’ budgets everywhere." I see this exposure daily, I hear the overhead chimes in the hospital ring the lullabye of a new infant arrival maybe 30 times a day. I see the fathers dressed in typical Western hat dragging 3 to 4 other toddlers and asking direction to L&D in Spanish. I have also noticed the downtrend in birthrate of our own citizens. I also see the traumas roll in, and very often the typical knife fight at the local Mexican saloon was the setting. Again, no one speaks English, and multiple IDs are found. So, in my view, we are being overtaken, without a shot, and as is to California, we're paying for their side of the equation too. Really, California should just be ceded back to Mexico, New Mexico and Arizona next, and then Texas. If I come across as hateful to some, so be it, at least I am in favor of ceding 4 states to them to do with what they want (not like they are not doing it already, with our blessing and our denial to admit that they are). The trends are there as the book suggests and until you live it like I do, you have no way to understand until that exposure occurs to you. Not until then will you start second guessing some policies.

In a previous post I defended my assertion that a intensely regulated border was part of the answer.

"If you want to clean up a spill, what is the first thing one needs to do? If your toilet is leaking all over the bathroom floor, do you concern yourself with mopping it up hoping to keep up with the pace of the leak, or, do you simply shut off the water supply and make the cleanup secondary? That is common sense."

"How can you dispute a real border fence when recent examples showed them to be extremely effective? The Berlin Wall, the China Wall? They were not exactly porous. I would take a different approach, abolish the minimum wage, abolish any withholding on incomes below say 20k per year, and create tax incentives to hire common laborers. The carrot exists for illegal immigration because it was created by minimum wage, tax laws, layoff compensation, welfare, etc…all the safety nets created a lethargic populace not willing to get into the trenches. The illegals jumped right in on the opportunity our government provided, but created two intractable problems as a result. A huge welfare state and a huge illegal immigration problem."


There was no hate in my post, only reality as I see it. You use name calling instead of backing up what you think with any facts.
I am not against immigration. I am against ILLEGAL immigration and there is a BIG difference.
I have traveled to almost every continent in the last decade and have always been treated with politeness and respect even though I am an American. People that I have met from other countries do not hate Americans. They may dislike our country's foreign policies but they remain friendly to Americans if you are friendly to them.
Yes, it is unfortunate that illegals are being exploited and abused. But I am not seeing very many of that kind here in southern California. I am seeing young illiterate and uneducated teenaged girls with several babies already. I am seeing overpopulated schools filled with non-English speaking pupils who travel back and forth to their home country and do not value education enough. It is not their poorness that is holding them back, it is their culture. I don't think I mentioned the gangs and drug cartel members that have come into California but that is also a big problem. Our California prisons are filled with angry young men from other countries. We spend nearly $50,000 a year per inmate while our public education system is lacking in essentials.

Good or bad, California's legislature is filled with a heavy majority of Democrats who make the laws. Republicans are a clear minority so it is indeed a Democratic state. Our current governor/movie star is a Republican in name only. He has turned out to be as bad as the previous governor who was recalled. If we didn't have the 2/3 majority clause, our legislators would have bankrupted the state already. Or driven the taxpayers out of the state with the highest income taxes in the nation.

I live in the middle of it. I see it every day. Ellis, you must live in a lily white middle class neighborhood to be so blissfully ignorant of the HUGE illegal immigrant problem in California. We need to stop the flood and close the borders. We cannot afford to take care of another country's poor at the expense of our own families. The Federal government should help California financially because they helped to create this mess with open borders and mandatory free education, free breakfast and lunch school programs and free medical care in emergency rooms. It is not just to pick fruit for $8 an hour that they come here. I don't hire illegals and would gladly pay more for my fruits and vegetables that are not picked by illegals if I had to. It would be less expensive in the long run to do so.

Half of my relatives (husband's side) speak Spanish but their grandparents came here LEGALLY. My great grandparents came here through Ellis Island LEGALLY.
They were Irish and spoke littel English. They wanted to be American. They learned English and prospered. They didn't get anything free.

Times have changed. We print our ballots in many languages. Our legislators will not insist that English is our national language. We are no longer a melting pot but are now African-American, Hispanic-American, etc. instead of just being American. Some clearly do not wish to be become American but want this country to turn into the country that they came from. These are not the kind of immigrants that will help this country.

That is not hate speech. It is stating my opinion. You can disagree but it is still valid based on what I have experienced here in southern California.

10 years ago I left California with my business because of the taxes on corporations. What has happened in California is happening in the country. California is just a microcosm of the country as a whole. The sad thing for all of us non-Californians: we are directly impacted by Calif politics. We will end up bailing out the state because it will be termed "too big to fail". What a crock of horse%&#$. I know it is too good to become reality, but I really wish that the citizens of California realize now what they have done to themselves and the rest of the country.

to soapboxlady and omg
notwithstanding that you keep denying that you hate, your words belie your real feelings andf thoughts.
what either of you do not know about mexico and its citizens would fill an encyclopedia. all of your arguments are based on a fautly knowledge.
yes, the mexican culture is different than yours, but different does not mean worse, just different, though both of you accept that it is somehow lacking or second class or worse. both of you sound like our new presidential candidate lou dobbs who by claiming his wife is hispanic, which could be any one of a dozen different cultures, absolves him from being racist.
mexico, no matter what you believe, does not want to acquire the southwestern united states. most mexicans are not even certain they own the baja california peninsula.
most mexicans are not in the drug trade. there are far more u.s. citizens in this business than there are from south of our border. the cause of the trade in drugs, and its big supply line through mexico is ..wait for it… the citizens of the u.s. who spend billions of dollars each year buying drugs, from mexico and from all over the world, sometimes with the collateral help of the u.s. government. the mexican government would truly like to crush the drug trade and is using its army in the fight. however, there is so much money involved, and so much pressure from the drug cartels ' take either plata or plumbo' that it is a difficult fight and maybe an almost impossible one. besides, there are too many americans profiting mightily from the trade for it to be stopped by the u.s.. i know that everyone believes the government in mexico is corrupt, but though corruption exists it is dwarfed by that occurring in the u.s.. look arouind you if you do not believe that.
you two, and all your sycophants, have consistently barked up the wrong tree. if you live and vote in california, you are at fault, no one else. i lived there for over 20 years and bear the same fault. i did not always vote to cause the probelms, but i often did. there is no one living in that state for any length of tiome that is innocent. california's problems are made for and paid for by its citizens in all sorts of ways. we came there looking for a good and comfortable life, and we got it sadly at our own expense and at the expense of all the others living there. so let's cut this crap about the illegals and quit using facts that are not fact and ideas that are only hate to demonize people who are mostly just looking for a better life,just as your forebears did and as all the immigrantts to the u.s have done. i will repeat, 40 or so years ago the largest group of illegals in the u.s were irish, but who was the country complaining about, the legal citizens from puerto rico. it was not because they were bad. it was becuause unlike the irish they did not look the same as everyone else. that is known as hate and were you to look into a mirror, that is what you might discern.
as a response, i am a sort of a liberal, but a semiconservative one. i do care about others. it is our responsibility if we believe in any ethical system. it would appear that both of you two do, but you just have not the ability to carry the thoughts as as your religion might tell you to go.

OMG: "a racist against the American nation"? "Nation" does not equate with "race."
And yes, over time, the hordes of Irish and Mediterraneans (read "Catholics"), East Europeans (including "Jews"), the "Yellow Peril," etc., even mixed marriage between blacks and whites have all been decried as threats to the American nation (or, at times, as that term has evolved, "race").
"Rape and pillage of the host country with greater effectiveness than any army….want proof…look at Afghanistan." Meaning what? that NATO forces aren't raping & pillaging Afghanistan effectively? or that, if "illegal immigrants" really were raping & pillaging the US, it would look like Afghanistan?


“a racist against the American nation”? “Nation” does not equate with “race."

Sometimes this is true.

“Rape and pillage of the host country with greater effectiveness than any army….want proof…look at Afghanistan.” Meaning what? that NATO forces aren’t raping & pillaging Afghanistan effectively? or that, if “illegal immigrants” really were raping & pillaging the US, it would look like Afghanistan?"

Do I have to draw pictures again?

It goes to show that you can only redistribute the wealth for so long. Whether the recipients of governement freebies are here legally or not, you eventually run out of money because government does not produce anything, it only takes what others have produced. The People's Republic of California is a perfect example.

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